Interview 09: Kristin Karotkin and Catherine Willhoit
Dublin Core
Title
Interview 09: Kristin Karotkin and Catherine Willhoit
Subject
COVID-19, COVID-19 pandemic, Hoboken, New Jersey
Description
An oral history with Kristin Karotkin and Catherine Willhoit, owners of a Hoboken coffee shop called The Hive that opened during the pandemic, regarding Hoboken's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as their personal experiences with it.
Creator
Hoboken Public Library
Publisher
Hoboken Public Library
Date
Recorded June 6, 2022
Format
Uploaded recording: .mp3
Preservation recording: .wav
Preservation recording: .wav
Language
English
Type
Oral history
Oral History Item Type Metadata
Original Format
Digital audio file
Duration
00:50:22
Transcription
Q: Hi. And thank you both for coming in today to participate in our oral history. If you could both state your name, age, any race, ethnicity, background information, you know, how long you've been in Hoboken, and also today's date.
KK: Sure. My name is Kristin Karotkin. I'm 39 years old. I've been in–a resident of Hoboken for about five and a half years. Today is Monday, June 6th.
CW: My name is Catherine Willhoit. I'm 39 years old. I've also been a resident of Hoboken for about 12 years before we moved to Jersey City, where we've been for about three years now.
Q: And so, you know, you also both work in Hoboken. So do you want to talk a little about that and how long you've been working here?
CW: Sure. So Kristin and I opened The Hive in 2020. We first came up with this idea in late 2018, early 2019. Signed a lease in November of 2019, and it took us a full year to open our shop.
And The Hive, just to give a little more background, it's a coffee and retail shop. We do our own in house baking of cookies and cinnamon rolls. We make coffee using beans that have been roasted with Kobrick's, which is a local business downtown Hoboken on the border of Jersey City. And we have a children's play space within. So we are very much a community focused operation. And–yeah.
Q: Thank you. And where were you when the industry lockdown was announced in March of 2020? And what do you remember from that day and moment?
KK: Sure. I remember being at home. I had a newborn baby at the time. My son, Harrison, was born at end of January of 2020, so I was home with a new baby. And I also had a two-and-a-half-year-old who was in day care. So I remember when the lockdown was announced, it was, like, okay, we're all going to be in our apartment for the next two weeks. My husband, he works in Manhattan, so he was going to be working from home. My daughter was no longer going to be at day care, and then there we all were.
CW: Yeah. It was a very strange time. I was working. I had my own public relations business, and I was working remotely as it was, and my husband was commuting to the city via ferry every single day, but he kept telling me–with, like, the two weeks leading up to lockdown, he kept saying, "The boats are getting really, really empty." And then the last three days he was going in, he just said it was, like, one other person, two other people. And he said to me, "You should probably, like, maybe get some groceries and some toilet paper."
And I remember running to Trader Joe's, and the line was out the door, and the energy was just very chaotic. We were all kind of just grabbing stuff to feed our families for, what Kristin said, the next two weeks, which is what we were told; right? Little did we know we'd still be dealing with it. But, yeah, I just remember thinking, what are we going to do? I had a two-and-a half-year-old as well, a son, and then another son who was a baby. He was a one month old when this all started. So it was just more what is happening? Are we okay? That fear of what is this, what's happening, I feel like as a mom just really, really hit me. And then, of course, for my elderly–elderly parents as well. We all just locked down, did what we were told, and just waited. That was it.
Q: And so, you know, how were your–the business jobs impacted by the total pandemic?
KK: Sure. So we had not yet opened our doors to The Hive when COVID began. We were in the process of doing the build out of our space, because, as Cat mentioned, we'd signed our lease in 2019, and we had fully started construction.
So in terms of how it was impacted, we definitely had a lot of moments as we got further and further into the pandemic and realized that this wasn't going away. Definitely had a lot of moments of, like, oh, wow, what are we–should we still open this business? Should we go forward? Because we were planning to open a place for the community to come and gather and people to come and get together, and that was exactly what everyone was being told not to do.
So we definitely had a lot of scary conversations. Are we taking a risk that is just insane with everything that's going on? And we also had to pause on our construction and kind of just wait for a little bit. At some point–I remember in April–March or April, like, New Jersey stopped all construction projects. So we just kind of had a waiting game.
Q: And, you know, was there anything that helped you to, you know, get through the stress of this time?
CW: You know, leaning on one another. Kristin and I both were in our homes. We started group chats over text with a few other friends who were in similar boats to us being home with our children. I think that certainly helped me. It felt like a bit of a lifeline, because we went from seeing one another –I was out working; I had child care – to still working, building a business, and handling the majority of the child care. So having that lifeline of friends who were going through such chaotic times really helped.
I also fully own the fact that I definitely drank a little bit more during the pandemic just because I was so stressed and overloaded and overwhelmed with the load of the day that was nonstop that at the end of the night, it just–it was my way of just kind of–I don't know, just releasing stress and kind of numbing myself to the chaos that was happening all around us. But, yeah, I mean, that was really it for me.
KK: I think similarly to what Catherine said, like just leaning on other friends in a similar boat, other mom friends who were home with young kids, who were really taking on the burden of child care. I remember my family, we were living with my in laws at the time in Westchester, about an hour from here. But every–I think twice a week my daughter would log on to a virtual baby bandstand class, which was a music class that she did here in Hoboken, and it was just really nice to see a lot of, like, familiar faces, see a lot of her friends, a lot of other parents who looked just as stressed and out of it as I did. So it was a nice way for us to feel a little bit of connection with the Hoboken community from afar.
See, and that was one thing. I think, like, Cat said, like, I'd drink a lot of wine during the pandemic. Yeah, and it was just trying to do anything we could just to cope with these, like, strange circumstances of just being at home and, you know, on one hand trying to build our business from afar and, you know, manage a construction project that was on pause, but still needing things to move forward.
And we were trying at the time, too, to work with city hall, which at that point we were in the process of trying to get permits for our business and trying to get our drawings approved. And it was a very strange time, where everything had to go through the mail as opposed to being able to, like, walk up to city hall and drop something off. So that was just a very interesting experience too, you know, getting our construction drawings approved and all of those things. Everything took an incredibly long amount of time just because of how processes for everything changed.
Q: And as the pandemic went along, how did your lives and your jobs change with, you know, the just, like, regulations and, you know, the restrictions?
CW: Well, kind of at the start, because Kristin lives a little bit farther away, and we were–we were meeting in Jersey City, you know, it was a matter of, like, going to city hall and, like, meeting someone outside. So, I mean, trying to where–I mean, meeting our architect, getting the papers, and, like, calling Kristin and FaceTiming, instead of having it just be one cohesive unit, our architect, Kristin and I as a team, we just worked very piecemeal and just delivered things as we could. We'd meet up masked to walk the space.
As the months wore on and we realized this was not going away and as we inched closer to opening our shop in November of that year, you know, we felt a little more secure. We knew what we had to do. We knew what this was. We knew the risks involved in getting together. I feel like we just kind of like held our noses and jumped off the deep end as we got closer and closer because we had no choice. Our choices were to do this and take what we declared at the time risks in gathering in the summer as we were building the shop or walk away from a business that we poured thousands of dollars and countless hours into. So we had no choice. And, thankfully, it has pushed us into a really great space now.
KK: Yeah. I think the dilemma, too, when we did eventually open our doors, it was just like a very–When we started dreaming this business, I think we both had this vision of, like, opening day, it's going to be this amazing celebration, and we're going to have this grand opening party. And while it was still a very exciting day, it was very different than we had ever imagined. We were a coffee shop, and we didn't have any tables or chairs inside. No one was allowed to come in and sit down. Everybody was waiting in line to come in, which was amazing that we had a line, and we were so grateful for that. But they had to all wait outside at, like, six feet apart. And we had to put all these–You know, it was putting all these measures into place to make sure we could safely open up our doors and still serve people.
And going into the coffee business alone in its original, like, when the times were normal or whatever that meant was new for us anyway, so navigating this, like, uncharted territory to operating a coffee and food service business in COVID times was just even more of a learning, and we had to really just figure out how to navigate that.
But like Cat said, like, we are so glad and thankful that we charted that course, because right now we are so happy and grateful that we have a successful business. And I think had we made the decision to walk away, looking back now, we would have been just full of regret. So I'm so glad we did not.
Q: And was it difficult finding, like, staff and, you know, during the pandemic?
KK: Yeah, it was a little difficult. I think initially we did–we were able to, like, fully staff our shop, but throughout the first year, when COVID was still very much or still is very much around, it definitely–we definitely felt how that was affecting our team. We had one teammate who worked for us for a few weeks and then decided that she was too nervous, and she didn't want to be in a position where she was with the general public day to day, so she ended up taking time away. She left for a few months. And then once the vaccines came out and she felt more comfortable, she did come back.
And then it was just navigating what we do when our staff eventually came down with COVID. We knew that was going to be kind of an inevitability. And then, you know, there was a time when both of our families got COVID. So it was just managing all those different scenarios that didn't really know how to manage them until you were in them, and it was kind of like an oh my God moment. What do we do? Because there was no playbook. There's no–There's no guidance on, like, how you manage this whole thing. So [unintelligible 00:11:49]. I kind of went on a tangent there.
But, yes, we were able to–We were able to find staff. And I think–I think our–We say it every day that, like, our staff and our team is really what makes The Hive the special place that it is. We're so lucky with the people that we found who work for us and that they really do, like, embody everything that we wanted The Hive to stand for.
Q: And how were your families' lives impacted by the pandemic? Your child, you know, being still so young to date, do you think that he knows–has any awareness with your daughter?
KK: I wouldn't say awareness right away because she was so young, but I think, no, when she eventually returned to day care, she had to wear a mask. So I do think, like, toddlers, though, were the most accepting of that. She was–It was–You know, she was great about it. And I think toddlers are super resilient.
So I think there's certain things that she says to me today that I'm, like, that's a little bit sad that you say that. Like, you know, sometimes when she sees her friend, she's, like, "Oh, not allowed to hug. Only like air high fives." And I'm, like, that's a little bit sad that, like, as a two year old–or now she's four and a half–but…
And I think my son, like, he didn't see anyone except for our immediate family for, like, the first six months of his life because he was born right at the beginning of COVID. But I do think on the other side of the coin it was, like, really special that we all got to be together for so long, like, especially when my son was born. My husband says it all the time. Like if he was wasn't working from home–My husband works in bankruptcy, so during COVID he was incredibly busy. And he says all the time if he wasn't working from home, he would have never seen our son, because he would have just been working so many hours away at the office. So I think there's both sides of that.
And I think we just continued to experience that. Up until, like, last month, when both of our children, who are in school and in day care, anytime there's a COVID exposure, it's, like, okay, close down school for two weeks. Kids can't go for two weeks. So–And I say all the time. Like we're so grateful to have each other as partners who are in the same situation because we can just kick it over to–
CW: We get it.
KK: Yeah. We get it. We understand each other's lives and things that are happening with child care, and we're able to kick it over to each other when one of us cannot be at the shop doing what we need to be doing.
CW: Yeah. And I think for me, you know, my oldest son, Finn, even now is a very social little boy. He loves being with friends. Loves being with his family, me specifically. But he realized something was going on because he went from being out with our nanny, Brenda, every single day seeing his girlfriend, seeing his little buddies at the park, and then he didn't. And I just noticed, like, behavior that was just so abnormal for him at the time.
So I struggled with, like, trying to make up for the loss of him having that social time with friends. I was struggling with my own life with social time with friends, and still, like, it's hard to think back, but we, you know, think back to being away from my parents. Like we isolated from them for months because my parents are in their late 70s and early 80s. So that's the sort of stuff that, of course, we'll never get back. But, you know, it was what it was. We did what we had to do, and, you know, we got by.
Q: And for both of you, how are holidays celebrated during the pandemic in your households? Did you do anything, like, special to try and, like, you know, virtual get togethers?
CW: Yeah. Totally. I mean, we did–Easter was the first holiday that we celebrated, and that was just my husband and my kids and I. And then we had my youngest son's first birthday. It was virtual. And one of the biggest moments from that whole year was I just remember having a virtual party with our family in Florida and my parents in New Jersey, and what evolved with that was that the kids, my oldest and my youngest, they started eating the smashed cake, and then it became a little food fight we pitched with them. Like I think if it was in a party situation I would have been, like, this is terrible. Stop. Stop. But at the time I was, like, who cares? It's cake and frosting all over the floor and the table and in the windows, and they were closed. And it's, like, that just kind of rolled off my back, where it probably wouldn't have if I was entertaining.
But everything was just really small for us. Thanksgiving, any birthdays after that, Christmas. Even now, just, again, with elderly parents, on both my side and my husband's, we're just very aware and still text and just try and make sure we're all still healthy before seeing older families.
But you have a bigger family, Kris, so you have a–
KK: Yeah.
CW: …more struggle.
KK: Yeah. I mean, I think that was like a–like definitely tougher on us during COVID to do the big family and get together a lot. My husband comes from a big family as well, so holidays were always–or birthdays were always big reasons to celebrate. But, yeah, similarly, did a lot of Zoom holidays. We did Zoom Easter, Zoom Passover, a lot of Zoom birthdays, and then celebrate, you know, kind of by ourselves.
One holiday that stands out to me in particular was Thanksgiving this past year, because it was one of the first holidays I think we were, like, ready to get together. And then my daughter tested positive that morning. So when everybody was testing, getting ready for that morning to get the "We're all clear to go," we all of a sudden had to be, like, we're not coming because we have COVID.
So, yeah, it's definitely a big change. I think, you know, I definitely missed celebrating our big family Christmas for sure. It was definitely different, but a reminder that it is nice to be able to, like, see people and that we are lucky to have those friends when we can all get together.
Q: And what are some things that occurred during the pandemic that you think so many people outside of your experience being in Hoboken starting the business that they might not realize, you know–you know or versus their own experience?
CW: Hmm. In what way? Say the question again. Sorry? I'm just kind of–
Q: What are some things that occurred to you specifically that you think outside your experience people might not realize that happened during the pandemic?
CW: I don't know. I mean, I think for sure with us starting a new business, having to go through city hall, you know, many offices and departments the way we did, you know, I have a newfound appreciation for the seamless nature of how it works under normal circumstances. I think that was very challenging and something that no one would know, all the hoops that we had to jump through, all the waiting around, the time that it took.
I mean, we ended up spending I think–what was it?–four or six months more. We were hoping to open in April or May of 2020. Obviously, that was very, very much not the case. We ended up opening in November that year. So I think that–No one would ever know that unless they were intimately familiar with our experience.
Do you have anything, Kris?
KK: I don't know if this is totally an answer to that question, but I think something that a lot of people, like, don't realize is I think when we first opened our business, we got to know so many of our customers quite intimately, because for a lot of people who were working at home or are isolating, popping out for a cup of coffee was, like, the one social interaction they were having on a day to day basis. So I feel like we were really able to, like, build up a community because we were there for people.
So I think it was–I think so many of my friends and family were those people working from home and didn't realize that I was out every day talking to people and, like, being more social, so it felt–definitely felt a little different, I think, the way I experienced personally the pandemic versus, like, a lot of my family and friends.
Even my husband. Like I would be at The Hive all day talking to people, and I'd come home and be, like, I cannot talk anymore. Like I am all talked out. And my husband had been sitting in our bedroom on his laptop working all day, not seeing anyone. So when I'd come home, he would be ready to talk. Like, "How was your day? What's going on?" And it was just a very different experience for the two of us. So I think it was just, yeah, talking to a lot of friends and family, and, like, our experiences were so different because we were in a customer facing job.
Q: And do you think that you yourself or what you did to put value on changed because of the pandemic?
KK: Sorry. Can I hear that one again?
Q: So did your view of yourselves or what you chose to put value on change at all because of the pandemic?
CW: Hmm, I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean, I've always valued time with family. I think I have a greater appreciation for it now because the coin has totally flipped. So it went from me being home all the time with my children, and I felt like it was just quantity, quantity, quantity versus the quality; whereas, now I'm working so much and so often throughout the week that the time I do have my children, who are now four and a half and three, I have such quality. I try and really, really take my time to appreciate the time that we spend with them. So from that perspective, yes.
Like I always knew how fleeting time with young children is because they grow up so quickly. So I've always appreciated it, but perhaps it's a different level of appreciation now. And I guess, too, like healthwise. I don't know that I could ever–Like watching what friends and family members went through at the very start when this was absolute terror of a new virus. Now we know more. We're informed, which feels really powerful. But at the time, like, watching people go through it, someone from my high school was married to someone who was hospitalized for months. So you kind of get a greater appreciation for health and just function. Maybe it was always there and it just kind of got dredged up to the surface while we were going through it.
KK: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I have such a greater appreciation for–just for health in general. And I think something that came out during COVID, like I was saying before, like, we had a lot of these, like, Zoom holidays. And, like, while we were home, I had, like, a Zoom chat with college friends, like, every couple of weeks, and then, you know, different groups of friends were getting together because that was, like, the new thing to do was have, like, a Zoom happy hour. And I feel like a lot of friends, we were, like, why did it take a pandemic for us to do this? Like I still don't see these people all the time in normal circumstances. So we were, like, we should just continue to do this because, you know, it was really great getting together virtually and, like, seeing people's faces as opposed to, like, checking in via e mail or text. It was just, like, a totally different thing. So I think that was something that was, like, we need to take the time to do this.
And I think similar to what Cat said, just putting more I guess value or, like, really putting–making my plan–my social plans more–not saying yes to everything, because it was very–What am I trying to say? It was, like, very different when we were home and not doing anything, and then all of a sudden it was, like, okay, now we can go out again. And it's, like, where do you want take me? Put value on the plans that you're making. That's not coming out right. But, anyway (Laughs) I guess like–
CW: [Unintelligible 00:23:23].
KK: Prioritizing. Prioritizing your time and, like, not saying yes to everything and really, I don't know, being thoughtful about how you're spending your time outside of your family and…
Q: And how were things with the business when you were able to kind of more fully reopen, like actually have people sit in the space, you know, have that whole area where the kids could play together? You know, how was that when you got to finally do that?
KK: It was great. I mean, I remember we had–finally were able to, like, put our tables back, and there was, like, life in our shop, and people were able to hang out. I think one of the, like, craziest experiences was we got to know all these people with a mask on; and then once the mask restrictions were lifted, it was like having to reintroduce ourselves to everybody because they looked so different without a mask on. You kind of–Your brain kind of, like, makes up a face for people sometimes.
So it was just like a whole mind game of, like, oh, here's me. We've been talking to each other for months every day, but, like, we never actually knew what I looked like. So I think that was really interesting. And being able to use our play space, like you mentioned, like in the way that we intended was just really, really cool.
I think one thing that we were lucky enough to be able to pivot with our business during COVID was instead of having our play space available for children and their parents, you know, just coming whenever they wanted to play, we switched to operating a reservation model so that one person at a time could reserve our play space for a small group. So whoever they were comfortable being around, their pod, their family, their COVID bubble, just getting them at our place to come and play, and I think that was–we've heard from, you know, so many customers and family that that was, like, a real saving grace in a time when apartment walls were feeling really, really small, just having another place to go really helped out.
Q: And did you feel any issues with supply chain, you know, with the business?
CW: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We still do. You know, at the moment, we're struggling to find chocolate chips for our chocolate chip and brownie batter and S'mores cookies. So, yeah, in a lot of ways, supply chain issues have slowed down delivery of items. Anything from stickers that we put on our cups to the cups themselves. It comes in waves.
So, like I said, we're having struggles finding chocolate chips. Sometimes it'll be cups. You know, other things like, you know, we're hearing it from customers, they're kind–like they're renovating home–Oh, our friends. That's a good example. When we first opened, the play space was just open, you know, entry, and we wanted to put up some sort of gate or fence or something, and our carpenter kept saying to us I'm leaving. There's been such a run on fencing, because people are moving to the suburbs, you know, in record rates, we can't get fencing. So, yeah, we waited on–But, yeah, I mean, still every single day, it'll be, like, there's something new that is just back ordered and not coming anytime soon.
KK: Yeah. And I think it's always very random.
CW: Yeah.
KK: You never know what the shortage is going to be until one day it's just out. And we've seen crazy inflation too –
CW: Yeah.
KK: … I think due to these shortages. Like since we've opened our doors, the price on our plastic cups has doubled. So the prices have just gone through the roof. So we're definitely feeling the effects of that for sure.
Q: What precautions did you have at your workplace, you know, when it first started? Do you want to talk about that? Like, you know, what was required in Hoboken?
KK: Sure. So we followed all of the guidance that was provided to us by the city and by the CDC. So when we first opened our doors, we had–No one was allowed to sit inside. So it was strictly, like, come, pick up, and go. All of our employees and all of our staff was required to be masked. We implemented, like, different cleaning protocols to make sure, like, our play space, for example, everything had, like, a standardized, like, cleaning protocol. For a little while we didn't take cash to kind of limit the contact between our staff and customers. We never offered to stay cups or plates. We still kind of don't because we realized during COVID, like, we didn't really need to do that. We do it for plastic. So I think that was a big one.
Q: [Unintelligible 00:27:50]
CW: We kind of covered it. We were just also very cautious about people starting to exhibit any symptoms, people meaning on our team and ourselves included. So, you know, at the start, those first I want to say six months we were hyper, hyper aware if someone has a scratchy throat or a runny nose, and we just asked that everyone stay home.
We offered–We paid sick time for anyone who tested positive for COVID. We did all the things that we possibly could to keep ourselves and our customers healthy. We did what we could.
KK: Another thing we did, because we were in the midst of construction when this all came out, we allowed our engineer and our architect–I'm probably going to butcher the description of this–But they upgraded our air ventilation system, because we were still designing all of that when this came to be. So we upgraded that to make sure that we were pumping in and pumping out as much clean air in our space as we were able to.
Q: And did anything in your past, you know, help you prepare for the pandemic do you think, or do you think that this wasn't really something you could be prepared for?
CW: Certainly not in my world public relations other than, like, I was always used to washing my hands because I was going in and out of New York City and on subways and things all the time. And having small children, I was so hyper aware just how germy they could be. So washing hands is a big one. But, I don't know, I felt like a, you know, just a huge train just, like, hit us. That's what it felt like. I don't know that you're ever, you know, prepared for a surprise train. Maybe others were. But I certainly–I don't know that I could have ever–I could do it all over again if I could be prepared.
KK: Yeah. I don't think so. I don't know that there was anything–I mean, I feel like in those first two weeks of lockdown, I'm, like, a very crafty person, so I was, like, super amped up to, like, make all these craft projects for my daughter to do, but that, like, very quickly faded after. It was, like, this is going to go on for a long time. But, yeah, I don't know that there's anything that really–that prepared you–prepared me.
CW: No. I mean, looking forward, if this were to ever happen again, I feel like we're, I mean, carrying around trauma like everyone else, just knowing what we all went through, I feel like if this were to–if there were to ever be hints of anything like this again, what I know now will better prepare me even when I [unintelligible 00:30:17].
KK: Lots of crafts in mine.
Q: Perfect. (Laughs)
And would you say things have mostly gone back to normal for you, or do you still see the effects of the pandemic regularly?
CW: For me, yes. I think for my mental health, I'm just focused on moving forward and knowing that I am fully vaccinated and boosted. My husband is. My oldest son will be as soon as he turns five at the end of September. I think it's one of these things we have to live with.
I have a good friend who works for one of the districts–school districts in Brooklyn, and hearing her stories of what children have gone through, where they're being left home alone because their parents cannot afford to not work hourly jobs, and they have to be in quarantine because of tested–being tested positive. Those are the things where I'm, like, I think we all have to move on as safely as we can.
So, yeah, I think at this point I am just–I'm looking forward, trying to keep my kids healthy. We have all had COVID and very happy to say that we were okay. We didn't have severe symptoms. As soon as you get that positive test, though, you just feel like the walls are crumbling all around you, and it's, like, oh, is this where I get everyone sick? Are we all, you know, going to have a really bad case of it?
Now that it's behind us, it's really a matter of, like, struggling when classes shut down for a few weeks and then child care kind of gets, you know, thrown out of the air like confetti. And I'm sure, yeah, Kris goes through the same thing too.
KK: Yeah, I mean, similar. I feel like I'm living mostly back to a normal life. You know, we went on our first plane vacation last month since COVID, and that felt, like, very normal. I am reminded that it's still, like, very much a thing when my son's classroom was shut down the week before we went on vacation because somebody–or two weeks before–because somebody–There was an exposure.
So I feel like every time, like, oh, things are back to normal, there is something that comes up and reminds me not quite yet. And kind of building on what Cat said, I think my–Everyone in my family also had COVID at one point. And I think once my children, who are four and two, so not old enough to be vaccinated yet, once they got it and, thankfully, we learned they were okay, I think that was, like, a big relief, feeling like it wasn't going to be as scary. So I think having unvaccinated kids is one of the things that kept me still not feeling that I could be living my totally back to normal, back to pre COVID life.
CW: I think one thing Kristin and I often talk about is how fortunate we remind ourselves that we are, because we do not have children or health issues ourselves that create this stress of what the cold and flu season can do to families who have health issues or underlying conditions or compromised immune systems. So I feel like that reminder of, like, we are constantly walking around with gratitude that we had it, we're okay, and our kids are okay, we have to move forward is not something that I will lose sight of, that is for sure, now until forever.
Q: And did you have friends or family in other states or countries even? And how were their experiences from when you talk to them different from your own here in Hoboken or in Jersey City?
CW: I mean, I have family in Scotland and England. So my parents are British. And so all our family is abroad. And it was very, very different, very strict abroad, in the UK. No households could mix at one point. And the government was offering incentives for people to report any cross pollination of families or group gatherings. And where my mom's family is in particular, it's all the way in the north in Scotland. Very remote. Not very remote, but pretty remote compared to New Jersey's dense population. You know, the thought of COVID getting there was just beyond our wildest imagination. And sure enough, it was there. Our cousins had it, their kids had it.
So it's one of these things that was just everywhere. But their way of handling it was just to do lockdown and very, very strict measures, but it didn't impact it. It still managed to work its way in. Borders opened up pretty early, and a lot of people were pointing to the fact that that's why the wave kicked off when it did and then it came over to us. So, you know, it was really interesting just to hear the different perspectives, and the [unintelligible 00:34:54] that came over there just like it did here.
KK: And most of my family is, you know, here in New Jersey or in New York, quite close by, but I still think everybody's experience with COVID was so different. And, also, coming from the fact, too, that within my own family, you know, there were some people who were very against getting the vaccine. So I think that just really amplified how different people were experiencing this and going through things, and, you know, it brought up different points of contention at family gatherings and things like that. So just a reminder that everybody kind of experiences a pandemic in their very own personal way.
Q: And do you think there was anything about being in Hoboken that made your pandemic experiences unique?
CW: Well, for me, I have to–Political views aside, I thought Mayor Bhalla did a phenomenal job in running the city during that time. I have no agenda here in saying that. I just–From my perspective, I felt like his communication was so clear. I felt comfort in knowing that there was somebody watching over this square mile.
I thought the way they led the charge with helping small businesses–Ours was not yet a thing, so it wasn't affected–But creating the street eries, really championing businesses and allowing them to make accommodations for outdoor dining, and supporting in that regard, creating the grants and issuing the messages around when they were due and what needed to be done. I thought he did great job.
So I found tremendous amounts of comfort. And I was reminded of the difference between Hoboken and other cities. When we were in Jersey City, where we lived at the time, I took the kids to the American Museum of Natural History quite a bit, and seeing the amount of businesses that shut down in New York was crushing.
At one point I remember when we went in, I said to Kristin and my husband, I was, like, "It felt like a ghost town." Manhattan's Upper West Side felt like a ghost town. Hoboken never felt like that. Yes, it thinned out. And when I'd go on walks with my kids, it felt sad that no one was here. No one was waiting. There were no friends to play with at the playgrounds. But overall I thought Hoboken did a phenomenal job at, like, keeping the businesses alive and flourishing while informing and supporting the residents, young and old alike.
Q: Anything else you want to add?
KK: I think we kind of summed it up great.
CW: I agree. [Unintelligible 00:37:34].
Q: And do you know anybody else in town that had to open for business, you know, did they have any different, you know, experiences than your own?
KK: Yeah. I mean, I think we've become friendly with a lot of other business owners in town, and I think everybody kind of had their own different way of kind of dealing with COVID, handling COVID. I'm trying to think of anything in particular.
CW: You know, it's just the different business owners with different landlords.
KK: Yeah.
CW: Some, you know, were fantastic landlords who were really understanding of what they were going through, would hold off on rent. Even ours, when we were saying to them, you know, we might not be able to open and do well. Would you tack on rent that we owe onto the back end of our lease? And they were so accommodating.
Nick Petruzzelli, who is a local, born and raised in this area, and has lived here for many, many, many years, was phenomenal to work with. We are fortunate in that because we had other friends and businesses that their landlords were really difficult to work for and really put their businesses, you know, at a tipping point.
I think of Elevate Pilates, which is not too far from this library, she struggled in the sense of, like, her landlord gave no accommodations, and she survived the pandemic. So I think there is a level of not ego. What's it–I think pride if you made it through the pandemic without any sort of support from your landlord or the government and made it, because it's very challenging. You know, it was really, really dark the first early few months.
Q: Did you have any family that was essential workers or friends that were essential workers that–Any stories from that?
CW: Oh, yeah. I have a few friends who are nurses, some school nurses, some in hospitals. Hearing their stories, the one that stands out, a friend of mine who works for Robert Wood Johnson in New Brunswick, New Jersey, saying that they brought in a mobile morgue. And I don't know that I will ever forget hearing that. Just the thought of a hospital needing something like that was and still is absolutely chilling. And just the level of stress.
We served many nurses, too, during those early days, and hearing their stories of, yeah, the ER's picking up again. Hearing their struggles to find PPE even in November and December 2020 was really, really traumatizing. You just think frontline workers like that will always have what they need to serve people who need it, need the help. But, yeah, just hearing their stories was very eye opening.
Q: And have you made any changes in your life or job, anything that the business, you know, changed the way you opened that you might keep even post pandemic?
KK: I think one of the things that we've kept is the reservation system for our play space. We offer open play for half a day, and we've kept the reservations for part of the day because we've heard from a lot of customers they really like that. They like being able to have a space that they can go with their friends and know just who is going to be in there. So that's one of the things that we've kept for sure.
CW: I also think we introduced for our hourly workers at the shop paid sick time. I think putting value on taking care of yourself when you are unwell I think is something that we should all take with us now, pre pandemic, post pandemic, and forever. Because, no, it's important to take care of ourselves. That's something.
I don't know. I don't have anything else. We like to celebrate nurses and teachers, that's for sure, and that's something that we'll forever do with free cookies and coffee whenever we can.
Q: Has the pandemic changed anything about the way you view Hoboken?
CW: If anything, I love it more. You know, going back to what I said about how Mayor Bhalla and his, you know, his team and council ran the city throughout the pandemic, certainly the early months, I don't know, it just made me fall in love with it more. The tight knit nature of this community, the way they came together to–One of our customers runs the food pantry. And just hearing her stories about how Hoboken really banded together to keep it stocked, hearing stories of people who had never been but all of a sudden needed to go, I just think Hoboken is a magical town in that it really rises up when faced with a challenge.
I've been here long enough to see a few challenges. Hurricane Sandy stands out in my mind. Hurricane–was it Ida that we suffered through? And, of course, the pandemic. So, you know, I think there's a lot to be celebrated about what they do for one another.
Q: And what changes do you think Hoboken has had since the pandemic? Do you think any mood's changed or...
KK: A lot more people, that's for sure.
CW: I mean, we feel like that we saw so many of our friends move out of Hoboken. And at one point Kristin and I were, like, are we going to have any friends left in town? It was sad to see so many people move for more states, which we understood, but now we're seeing so many people coming back. I think holy moly. I mean, this town is busting at the seams with new faces, which is so great.
KK: And I think, like, I love that the parklets and the street eries have kind of stayed around. I think it just, like, really brings the sidewalks of this city to life, and it's so cool to see all these, you know, restaurants thriving, and having all this additional space is cool.
CW: Yeah, lots of [unintelligible 00:43:12].
Q: Do you have any predictions for the future of Hoboken?
CW: It's certainly an expensive town to live in. And I think it's only going to get more expensive. (Laughs)
I'd like to think that, you know, maybe it's maybe not a prediction, more of a hope that this community continues to be supportive of one another. There's so much diversity within the town, so many young families.
We spoke at Brandt's career day on Friday, the first, and–that they had. And that's both history. And just seeing these young faces gave us such hope because they're so smart. The education they're receiving is so incredible. The teachers are amazing. I think if anything, this town is going to be in great hands if those graduates take care of it at all, I think.
KK: Yeah. I mean, I wish I had a crystal ball to see what's going to come of Hoboken, but I think you're right. I think it's just going to get more magical. And I think there's just more energy and more people coming in, and hopefully it means all good things.
I mean, there's a lot of cool new projects, like, coming up. I know our landlords are doing a really amazing project in the southwest of Hoboken to bring a whole retail plaza and more services to that part of town. So I think there's a lot of exciting things happening that's going to just keep this town alive and keep the magic coming.
Q: Anything else you'd like to mention about Hoboken related to the pandemic or your personal experiences?
CW: I mean, we're so grateful to the town's residents for coming out in support of our business, because, truly, something that we talk about often is how grateful we are that we were able to survive as a new business. They say, you know, 50% of new businesses don't make it to their first anniversary. The fact that we did and we're thinking of growing within this town is something that we're so grateful for. And just for this community for being so fantastic.
We pour our hearts and our souls and so much of our time into working at The Hive and creating magic for everyone at The Hive that, you know, I don't know, I just can't wrap my head around what it would have been like if people didn't take a chance on coming to us and then keep coming back.
KK: Yeah, yeah. I think we're incredibly grateful that especially during COVID people, you know, took a little bit of a risk to come out and give us a chance and be a part of the community that we are trying to build, and we'll never not be grateful that we were able to be a part of everyone's lives and for some people a part of their day every day while they were going through this really crazy, insane time in the world. So...
CW: We're so lucky, too, to hear so many of their stories. We've met–You know, Frank O'Brien always stands out to me, because he worked before Truglio's–So our shop, The Hive, is in the former Truglio's butcher shop footprint. The Truglio family lived within the building. Prior to Truglio's was a deli called Hank's. Truglio's just had a little–a little office, a little annex, if you will, which is now our play space. And Frank O'Brien has been coming in since the very beginning, and just the loveliest of men. And he's told us so many stories. And we've heard that from others.
There's another Frank who tells us, like, little stories about how Hoboken was. You know, when it was New Year's Eve, their horse carts would go up and down the streets, and people would ring out bells. I hope those stories continue being told. This is why something like this oral history of anything is so important, because it's so easy to forget what this town was like. And I hope in 25, 30, 40 years people look back and think they were scared of what? And they were scared of their business not working? I don't know, I think it's important to document these things. And we're lucky to hear about it every day in the shop.
Q: Anything else pandemic related you'd want future generations of Hobokenites to know about?
KK: That feels like a very big responsibility to answer that.
CW: Yeah. We did our best.
KK: We did our best. I think that's a good one.
CW: It was scary. I hope people realize just how scary it was.
KK: Yeah. And I feel like even looking back on my own experiences from the beginning of COVID, and I'm, like, I did what? Like, people–thinking about people who were, like, Lysoling their bananas, I'm, like, doing all these things that in the moment you're, like, we have to do this to, like, make it through; but now looking back, we're, like, what were we doing? But when you–when the whole entire planet is going through this, like, unknown thing, everyone is just kind of I guess, like you said, doing their best and listening to any new information that we have at the moment. Yeah.
And hopefully future generations will never have to go through something like that. And I'm sure they'll do different things. But, yeah, there was just so much unknown, and every day was different information. We didn't know what information to believe and to listen to. And in the beginning, it was, like, don't wear masks. They don't do anything. And then months later it was, like, no, everybody has to wear a mask. So it just was such a really–I don't know how to describe it–remarkable time. I don't know.
Q: If there are–there is something like this a hundred years from now, another pandemic, what would you say to those people in the future that have to go through this?
CW: Buy lots of wine. No.
KK: And toilet paper.
CW: And toilet paper. (Laughs)
Just know that there will be brighter days ahead. I think if we'd been told, like, this is going to go on forever at the start of the pandemic, I think we all would have just gone into crisis mode. I think we probably did go into crisis mode. But know that there will be brighter days ahead. Right? Optimism is everything when it comes to getting through life and pandemics.
KK: Yeah. And I think all you can do in those moments is lean on your family and your friends and get through it together as best you can. And it's a good reminder, like we were mentioning before, about, like, what truly is important, and, you know, it gives you a new–an entire new perspective on everything.
Q: Anything else that you'd like to add?
CW: Well, if anyone is listening to this in 25, 30 years and The Hive is still alive and well, just remember it was made by two moms who were very, very scared and overwhelmed and nervous at the start of the COVID 19 pandemic, and we weren't sure if we were going to make it. So here's hoping–
KK: Yeah. So here's hoping for those of you who are listening to this in 30 years that there are Hives all over the country and Catherine and I are on a Caribbean island somewhere drinking margaritas.
CW: (Laughs)
Q: Thank you so much.
CW: Thank you for having us.
KK: Thank you.
CW: This was so nice. Thank you.
KK: Sure. My name is Kristin Karotkin. I'm 39 years old. I've been in–a resident of Hoboken for about five and a half years. Today is Monday, June 6th.
CW: My name is Catherine Willhoit. I'm 39 years old. I've also been a resident of Hoboken for about 12 years before we moved to Jersey City, where we've been for about three years now.
Q: And so, you know, you also both work in Hoboken. So do you want to talk a little about that and how long you've been working here?
CW: Sure. So Kristin and I opened The Hive in 2020. We first came up with this idea in late 2018, early 2019. Signed a lease in November of 2019, and it took us a full year to open our shop.
And The Hive, just to give a little more background, it's a coffee and retail shop. We do our own in house baking of cookies and cinnamon rolls. We make coffee using beans that have been roasted with Kobrick's, which is a local business downtown Hoboken on the border of Jersey City. And we have a children's play space within. So we are very much a community focused operation. And–yeah.
Q: Thank you. And where were you when the industry lockdown was announced in March of 2020? And what do you remember from that day and moment?
KK: Sure. I remember being at home. I had a newborn baby at the time. My son, Harrison, was born at end of January of 2020, so I was home with a new baby. And I also had a two-and-a-half-year-old who was in day care. So I remember when the lockdown was announced, it was, like, okay, we're all going to be in our apartment for the next two weeks. My husband, he works in Manhattan, so he was going to be working from home. My daughter was no longer going to be at day care, and then there we all were.
CW: Yeah. It was a very strange time. I was working. I had my own public relations business, and I was working remotely as it was, and my husband was commuting to the city via ferry every single day, but he kept telling me–with, like, the two weeks leading up to lockdown, he kept saying, "The boats are getting really, really empty." And then the last three days he was going in, he just said it was, like, one other person, two other people. And he said to me, "You should probably, like, maybe get some groceries and some toilet paper."
And I remember running to Trader Joe's, and the line was out the door, and the energy was just very chaotic. We were all kind of just grabbing stuff to feed our families for, what Kristin said, the next two weeks, which is what we were told; right? Little did we know we'd still be dealing with it. But, yeah, I just remember thinking, what are we going to do? I had a two-and-a half-year-old as well, a son, and then another son who was a baby. He was a one month old when this all started. So it was just more what is happening? Are we okay? That fear of what is this, what's happening, I feel like as a mom just really, really hit me. And then, of course, for my elderly–elderly parents as well. We all just locked down, did what we were told, and just waited. That was it.
Q: And so, you know, how were your–the business jobs impacted by the total pandemic?
KK: Sure. So we had not yet opened our doors to The Hive when COVID began. We were in the process of doing the build out of our space, because, as Cat mentioned, we'd signed our lease in 2019, and we had fully started construction.
So in terms of how it was impacted, we definitely had a lot of moments as we got further and further into the pandemic and realized that this wasn't going away. Definitely had a lot of moments of, like, oh, wow, what are we–should we still open this business? Should we go forward? Because we were planning to open a place for the community to come and gather and people to come and get together, and that was exactly what everyone was being told not to do.
So we definitely had a lot of scary conversations. Are we taking a risk that is just insane with everything that's going on? And we also had to pause on our construction and kind of just wait for a little bit. At some point–I remember in April–March or April, like, New Jersey stopped all construction projects. So we just kind of had a waiting game.
Q: And, you know, was there anything that helped you to, you know, get through the stress of this time?
CW: You know, leaning on one another. Kristin and I both were in our homes. We started group chats over text with a few other friends who were in similar boats to us being home with our children. I think that certainly helped me. It felt like a bit of a lifeline, because we went from seeing one another –I was out working; I had child care – to still working, building a business, and handling the majority of the child care. So having that lifeline of friends who were going through such chaotic times really helped.
I also fully own the fact that I definitely drank a little bit more during the pandemic just because I was so stressed and overloaded and overwhelmed with the load of the day that was nonstop that at the end of the night, it just–it was my way of just kind of–I don't know, just releasing stress and kind of numbing myself to the chaos that was happening all around us. But, yeah, I mean, that was really it for me.
KK: I think similarly to what Catherine said, like just leaning on other friends in a similar boat, other mom friends who were home with young kids, who were really taking on the burden of child care. I remember my family, we were living with my in laws at the time in Westchester, about an hour from here. But every–I think twice a week my daughter would log on to a virtual baby bandstand class, which was a music class that she did here in Hoboken, and it was just really nice to see a lot of, like, familiar faces, see a lot of her friends, a lot of other parents who looked just as stressed and out of it as I did. So it was a nice way for us to feel a little bit of connection with the Hoboken community from afar.
See, and that was one thing. I think, like, Cat said, like, I'd drink a lot of wine during the pandemic. Yeah, and it was just trying to do anything we could just to cope with these, like, strange circumstances of just being at home and, you know, on one hand trying to build our business from afar and, you know, manage a construction project that was on pause, but still needing things to move forward.
And we were trying at the time, too, to work with city hall, which at that point we were in the process of trying to get permits for our business and trying to get our drawings approved. And it was a very strange time, where everything had to go through the mail as opposed to being able to, like, walk up to city hall and drop something off. So that was just a very interesting experience too, you know, getting our construction drawings approved and all of those things. Everything took an incredibly long amount of time just because of how processes for everything changed.
Q: And as the pandemic went along, how did your lives and your jobs change with, you know, the just, like, regulations and, you know, the restrictions?
CW: Well, kind of at the start, because Kristin lives a little bit farther away, and we were–we were meeting in Jersey City, you know, it was a matter of, like, going to city hall and, like, meeting someone outside. So, I mean, trying to where–I mean, meeting our architect, getting the papers, and, like, calling Kristin and FaceTiming, instead of having it just be one cohesive unit, our architect, Kristin and I as a team, we just worked very piecemeal and just delivered things as we could. We'd meet up masked to walk the space.
As the months wore on and we realized this was not going away and as we inched closer to opening our shop in November of that year, you know, we felt a little more secure. We knew what we had to do. We knew what this was. We knew the risks involved in getting together. I feel like we just kind of like held our noses and jumped off the deep end as we got closer and closer because we had no choice. Our choices were to do this and take what we declared at the time risks in gathering in the summer as we were building the shop or walk away from a business that we poured thousands of dollars and countless hours into. So we had no choice. And, thankfully, it has pushed us into a really great space now.
KK: Yeah. I think the dilemma, too, when we did eventually open our doors, it was just like a very–When we started dreaming this business, I think we both had this vision of, like, opening day, it's going to be this amazing celebration, and we're going to have this grand opening party. And while it was still a very exciting day, it was very different than we had ever imagined. We were a coffee shop, and we didn't have any tables or chairs inside. No one was allowed to come in and sit down. Everybody was waiting in line to come in, which was amazing that we had a line, and we were so grateful for that. But they had to all wait outside at, like, six feet apart. And we had to put all these–You know, it was putting all these measures into place to make sure we could safely open up our doors and still serve people.
And going into the coffee business alone in its original, like, when the times were normal or whatever that meant was new for us anyway, so navigating this, like, uncharted territory to operating a coffee and food service business in COVID times was just even more of a learning, and we had to really just figure out how to navigate that.
But like Cat said, like, we are so glad and thankful that we charted that course, because right now we are so happy and grateful that we have a successful business. And I think had we made the decision to walk away, looking back now, we would have been just full of regret. So I'm so glad we did not.
Q: And was it difficult finding, like, staff and, you know, during the pandemic?
KK: Yeah, it was a little difficult. I think initially we did–we were able to, like, fully staff our shop, but throughout the first year, when COVID was still very much or still is very much around, it definitely–we definitely felt how that was affecting our team. We had one teammate who worked for us for a few weeks and then decided that she was too nervous, and she didn't want to be in a position where she was with the general public day to day, so she ended up taking time away. She left for a few months. And then once the vaccines came out and she felt more comfortable, she did come back.
And then it was just navigating what we do when our staff eventually came down with COVID. We knew that was going to be kind of an inevitability. And then, you know, there was a time when both of our families got COVID. So it was just managing all those different scenarios that didn't really know how to manage them until you were in them, and it was kind of like an oh my God moment. What do we do? Because there was no playbook. There's no–There's no guidance on, like, how you manage this whole thing. So [unintelligible 00:11:49]. I kind of went on a tangent there.
But, yes, we were able to–We were able to find staff. And I think–I think our–We say it every day that, like, our staff and our team is really what makes The Hive the special place that it is. We're so lucky with the people that we found who work for us and that they really do, like, embody everything that we wanted The Hive to stand for.
Q: And how were your families' lives impacted by the pandemic? Your child, you know, being still so young to date, do you think that he knows–has any awareness with your daughter?
KK: I wouldn't say awareness right away because she was so young, but I think, no, when she eventually returned to day care, she had to wear a mask. So I do think, like, toddlers, though, were the most accepting of that. She was–It was–You know, she was great about it. And I think toddlers are super resilient.
So I think there's certain things that she says to me today that I'm, like, that's a little bit sad that you say that. Like, you know, sometimes when she sees her friend, she's, like, "Oh, not allowed to hug. Only like air high fives." And I'm, like, that's a little bit sad that, like, as a two year old–or now she's four and a half–but…
And I think my son, like, he didn't see anyone except for our immediate family for, like, the first six months of his life because he was born right at the beginning of COVID. But I do think on the other side of the coin it was, like, really special that we all got to be together for so long, like, especially when my son was born. My husband says it all the time. Like if he was wasn't working from home–My husband works in bankruptcy, so during COVID he was incredibly busy. And he says all the time if he wasn't working from home, he would have never seen our son, because he would have just been working so many hours away at the office. So I think there's both sides of that.
And I think we just continued to experience that. Up until, like, last month, when both of our children, who are in school and in day care, anytime there's a COVID exposure, it's, like, okay, close down school for two weeks. Kids can't go for two weeks. So–And I say all the time. Like we're so grateful to have each other as partners who are in the same situation because we can just kick it over to–
CW: We get it.
KK: Yeah. We get it. We understand each other's lives and things that are happening with child care, and we're able to kick it over to each other when one of us cannot be at the shop doing what we need to be doing.
CW: Yeah. And I think for me, you know, my oldest son, Finn, even now is a very social little boy. He loves being with friends. Loves being with his family, me specifically. But he realized something was going on because he went from being out with our nanny, Brenda, every single day seeing his girlfriend, seeing his little buddies at the park, and then he didn't. And I just noticed, like, behavior that was just so abnormal for him at the time.
So I struggled with, like, trying to make up for the loss of him having that social time with friends. I was struggling with my own life with social time with friends, and still, like, it's hard to think back, but we, you know, think back to being away from my parents. Like we isolated from them for months because my parents are in their late 70s and early 80s. So that's the sort of stuff that, of course, we'll never get back. But, you know, it was what it was. We did what we had to do, and, you know, we got by.
Q: And for both of you, how are holidays celebrated during the pandemic in your households? Did you do anything, like, special to try and, like, you know, virtual get togethers?
CW: Yeah. Totally. I mean, we did–Easter was the first holiday that we celebrated, and that was just my husband and my kids and I. And then we had my youngest son's first birthday. It was virtual. And one of the biggest moments from that whole year was I just remember having a virtual party with our family in Florida and my parents in New Jersey, and what evolved with that was that the kids, my oldest and my youngest, they started eating the smashed cake, and then it became a little food fight we pitched with them. Like I think if it was in a party situation I would have been, like, this is terrible. Stop. Stop. But at the time I was, like, who cares? It's cake and frosting all over the floor and the table and in the windows, and they were closed. And it's, like, that just kind of rolled off my back, where it probably wouldn't have if I was entertaining.
But everything was just really small for us. Thanksgiving, any birthdays after that, Christmas. Even now, just, again, with elderly parents, on both my side and my husband's, we're just very aware and still text and just try and make sure we're all still healthy before seeing older families.
But you have a bigger family, Kris, so you have a–
KK: Yeah.
CW: …more struggle.
KK: Yeah. I mean, I think that was like a–like definitely tougher on us during COVID to do the big family and get together a lot. My husband comes from a big family as well, so holidays were always–or birthdays were always big reasons to celebrate. But, yeah, similarly, did a lot of Zoom holidays. We did Zoom Easter, Zoom Passover, a lot of Zoom birthdays, and then celebrate, you know, kind of by ourselves.
One holiday that stands out to me in particular was Thanksgiving this past year, because it was one of the first holidays I think we were, like, ready to get together. And then my daughter tested positive that morning. So when everybody was testing, getting ready for that morning to get the "We're all clear to go," we all of a sudden had to be, like, we're not coming because we have COVID.
So, yeah, it's definitely a big change. I think, you know, I definitely missed celebrating our big family Christmas for sure. It was definitely different, but a reminder that it is nice to be able to, like, see people and that we are lucky to have those friends when we can all get together.
Q: And what are some things that occurred during the pandemic that you think so many people outside of your experience being in Hoboken starting the business that they might not realize, you know–you know or versus their own experience?
CW: Hmm. In what way? Say the question again. Sorry? I'm just kind of–
Q: What are some things that occurred to you specifically that you think outside your experience people might not realize that happened during the pandemic?
CW: I don't know. I mean, I think for sure with us starting a new business, having to go through city hall, you know, many offices and departments the way we did, you know, I have a newfound appreciation for the seamless nature of how it works under normal circumstances. I think that was very challenging and something that no one would know, all the hoops that we had to jump through, all the waiting around, the time that it took.
I mean, we ended up spending I think–what was it?–four or six months more. We were hoping to open in April or May of 2020. Obviously, that was very, very much not the case. We ended up opening in November that year. So I think that–No one would ever know that unless they were intimately familiar with our experience.
Do you have anything, Kris?
KK: I don't know if this is totally an answer to that question, but I think something that a lot of people, like, don't realize is I think when we first opened our business, we got to know so many of our customers quite intimately, because for a lot of people who were working at home or are isolating, popping out for a cup of coffee was, like, the one social interaction they were having on a day to day basis. So I feel like we were really able to, like, build up a community because we were there for people.
So I think it was–I think so many of my friends and family were those people working from home and didn't realize that I was out every day talking to people and, like, being more social, so it felt–definitely felt a little different, I think, the way I experienced personally the pandemic versus, like, a lot of my family and friends.
Even my husband. Like I would be at The Hive all day talking to people, and I'd come home and be, like, I cannot talk anymore. Like I am all talked out. And my husband had been sitting in our bedroom on his laptop working all day, not seeing anyone. So when I'd come home, he would be ready to talk. Like, "How was your day? What's going on?" And it was just a very different experience for the two of us. So I think it was just, yeah, talking to a lot of friends and family, and, like, our experiences were so different because we were in a customer facing job.
Q: And do you think that you yourself or what you did to put value on changed because of the pandemic?
KK: Sorry. Can I hear that one again?
Q: So did your view of yourselves or what you chose to put value on change at all because of the pandemic?
CW: Hmm, I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean, I've always valued time with family. I think I have a greater appreciation for it now because the coin has totally flipped. So it went from me being home all the time with my children, and I felt like it was just quantity, quantity, quantity versus the quality; whereas, now I'm working so much and so often throughout the week that the time I do have my children, who are now four and a half and three, I have such quality. I try and really, really take my time to appreciate the time that we spend with them. So from that perspective, yes.
Like I always knew how fleeting time with young children is because they grow up so quickly. So I've always appreciated it, but perhaps it's a different level of appreciation now. And I guess, too, like healthwise. I don't know that I could ever–Like watching what friends and family members went through at the very start when this was absolute terror of a new virus. Now we know more. We're informed, which feels really powerful. But at the time, like, watching people go through it, someone from my high school was married to someone who was hospitalized for months. So you kind of get a greater appreciation for health and just function. Maybe it was always there and it just kind of got dredged up to the surface while we were going through it.
KK: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I have such a greater appreciation for–just for health in general. And I think something that came out during COVID, like I was saying before, like, we had a lot of these, like, Zoom holidays. And, like, while we were home, I had, like, a Zoom chat with college friends, like, every couple of weeks, and then, you know, different groups of friends were getting together because that was, like, the new thing to do was have, like, a Zoom happy hour. And I feel like a lot of friends, we were, like, why did it take a pandemic for us to do this? Like I still don't see these people all the time in normal circumstances. So we were, like, we should just continue to do this because, you know, it was really great getting together virtually and, like, seeing people's faces as opposed to, like, checking in via e mail or text. It was just, like, a totally different thing. So I think that was something that was, like, we need to take the time to do this.
And I think similar to what Cat said, just putting more I guess value or, like, really putting–making my plan–my social plans more–not saying yes to everything, because it was very–What am I trying to say? It was, like, very different when we were home and not doing anything, and then all of a sudden it was, like, okay, now we can go out again. And it's, like, where do you want take me? Put value on the plans that you're making. That's not coming out right. But, anyway (Laughs) I guess like–
CW: [Unintelligible 00:23:23].
KK: Prioritizing. Prioritizing your time and, like, not saying yes to everything and really, I don't know, being thoughtful about how you're spending your time outside of your family and…
Q: And how were things with the business when you were able to kind of more fully reopen, like actually have people sit in the space, you know, have that whole area where the kids could play together? You know, how was that when you got to finally do that?
KK: It was great. I mean, I remember we had–finally were able to, like, put our tables back, and there was, like, life in our shop, and people were able to hang out. I think one of the, like, craziest experiences was we got to know all these people with a mask on; and then once the mask restrictions were lifted, it was like having to reintroduce ourselves to everybody because they looked so different without a mask on. You kind of–Your brain kind of, like, makes up a face for people sometimes.
So it was just like a whole mind game of, like, oh, here's me. We've been talking to each other for months every day, but, like, we never actually knew what I looked like. So I think that was really interesting. And being able to use our play space, like you mentioned, like in the way that we intended was just really, really cool.
I think one thing that we were lucky enough to be able to pivot with our business during COVID was instead of having our play space available for children and their parents, you know, just coming whenever they wanted to play, we switched to operating a reservation model so that one person at a time could reserve our play space for a small group. So whoever they were comfortable being around, their pod, their family, their COVID bubble, just getting them at our place to come and play, and I think that was–we've heard from, you know, so many customers and family that that was, like, a real saving grace in a time when apartment walls were feeling really, really small, just having another place to go really helped out.
Q: And did you feel any issues with supply chain, you know, with the business?
CW: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We still do. You know, at the moment, we're struggling to find chocolate chips for our chocolate chip and brownie batter and S'mores cookies. So, yeah, in a lot of ways, supply chain issues have slowed down delivery of items. Anything from stickers that we put on our cups to the cups themselves. It comes in waves.
So, like I said, we're having struggles finding chocolate chips. Sometimes it'll be cups. You know, other things like, you know, we're hearing it from customers, they're kind–like they're renovating home–Oh, our friends. That's a good example. When we first opened, the play space was just open, you know, entry, and we wanted to put up some sort of gate or fence or something, and our carpenter kept saying to us I'm leaving. There's been such a run on fencing, because people are moving to the suburbs, you know, in record rates, we can't get fencing. So, yeah, we waited on–But, yeah, I mean, still every single day, it'll be, like, there's something new that is just back ordered and not coming anytime soon.
KK: Yeah. And I think it's always very random.
CW: Yeah.
KK: You never know what the shortage is going to be until one day it's just out. And we've seen crazy inflation too –
CW: Yeah.
KK: … I think due to these shortages. Like since we've opened our doors, the price on our plastic cups has doubled. So the prices have just gone through the roof. So we're definitely feeling the effects of that for sure.
Q: What precautions did you have at your workplace, you know, when it first started? Do you want to talk about that? Like, you know, what was required in Hoboken?
KK: Sure. So we followed all of the guidance that was provided to us by the city and by the CDC. So when we first opened our doors, we had–No one was allowed to sit inside. So it was strictly, like, come, pick up, and go. All of our employees and all of our staff was required to be masked. We implemented, like, different cleaning protocols to make sure, like, our play space, for example, everything had, like, a standardized, like, cleaning protocol. For a little while we didn't take cash to kind of limit the contact between our staff and customers. We never offered to stay cups or plates. We still kind of don't because we realized during COVID, like, we didn't really need to do that. We do it for plastic. So I think that was a big one.
Q: [Unintelligible 00:27:50]
CW: We kind of covered it. We were just also very cautious about people starting to exhibit any symptoms, people meaning on our team and ourselves included. So, you know, at the start, those first I want to say six months we were hyper, hyper aware if someone has a scratchy throat or a runny nose, and we just asked that everyone stay home.
We offered–We paid sick time for anyone who tested positive for COVID. We did all the things that we possibly could to keep ourselves and our customers healthy. We did what we could.
KK: Another thing we did, because we were in the midst of construction when this all came out, we allowed our engineer and our architect–I'm probably going to butcher the description of this–But they upgraded our air ventilation system, because we were still designing all of that when this came to be. So we upgraded that to make sure that we were pumping in and pumping out as much clean air in our space as we were able to.
Q: And did anything in your past, you know, help you prepare for the pandemic do you think, or do you think that this wasn't really something you could be prepared for?
CW: Certainly not in my world public relations other than, like, I was always used to washing my hands because I was going in and out of New York City and on subways and things all the time. And having small children, I was so hyper aware just how germy they could be. So washing hands is a big one. But, I don't know, I felt like a, you know, just a huge train just, like, hit us. That's what it felt like. I don't know that you're ever, you know, prepared for a surprise train. Maybe others were. But I certainly–I don't know that I could have ever–I could do it all over again if I could be prepared.
KK: Yeah. I don't think so. I don't know that there was anything–I mean, I feel like in those first two weeks of lockdown, I'm, like, a very crafty person, so I was, like, super amped up to, like, make all these craft projects for my daughter to do, but that, like, very quickly faded after. It was, like, this is going to go on for a long time. But, yeah, I don't know that there's anything that really–that prepared you–prepared me.
CW: No. I mean, looking forward, if this were to ever happen again, I feel like we're, I mean, carrying around trauma like everyone else, just knowing what we all went through, I feel like if this were to–if there were to ever be hints of anything like this again, what I know now will better prepare me even when I [unintelligible 00:30:17].
KK: Lots of crafts in mine.
Q: Perfect. (Laughs)
And would you say things have mostly gone back to normal for you, or do you still see the effects of the pandemic regularly?
CW: For me, yes. I think for my mental health, I'm just focused on moving forward and knowing that I am fully vaccinated and boosted. My husband is. My oldest son will be as soon as he turns five at the end of September. I think it's one of these things we have to live with.
I have a good friend who works for one of the districts–school districts in Brooklyn, and hearing her stories of what children have gone through, where they're being left home alone because their parents cannot afford to not work hourly jobs, and they have to be in quarantine because of tested–being tested positive. Those are the things where I'm, like, I think we all have to move on as safely as we can.
So, yeah, I think at this point I am just–I'm looking forward, trying to keep my kids healthy. We have all had COVID and very happy to say that we were okay. We didn't have severe symptoms. As soon as you get that positive test, though, you just feel like the walls are crumbling all around you, and it's, like, oh, is this where I get everyone sick? Are we all, you know, going to have a really bad case of it?
Now that it's behind us, it's really a matter of, like, struggling when classes shut down for a few weeks and then child care kind of gets, you know, thrown out of the air like confetti. And I'm sure, yeah, Kris goes through the same thing too.
KK: Yeah, I mean, similar. I feel like I'm living mostly back to a normal life. You know, we went on our first plane vacation last month since COVID, and that felt, like, very normal. I am reminded that it's still, like, very much a thing when my son's classroom was shut down the week before we went on vacation because somebody–or two weeks before–because somebody–There was an exposure.
So I feel like every time, like, oh, things are back to normal, there is something that comes up and reminds me not quite yet. And kind of building on what Cat said, I think my–Everyone in my family also had COVID at one point. And I think once my children, who are four and two, so not old enough to be vaccinated yet, once they got it and, thankfully, we learned they were okay, I think that was, like, a big relief, feeling like it wasn't going to be as scary. So I think having unvaccinated kids is one of the things that kept me still not feeling that I could be living my totally back to normal, back to pre COVID life.
CW: I think one thing Kristin and I often talk about is how fortunate we remind ourselves that we are, because we do not have children or health issues ourselves that create this stress of what the cold and flu season can do to families who have health issues or underlying conditions or compromised immune systems. So I feel like that reminder of, like, we are constantly walking around with gratitude that we had it, we're okay, and our kids are okay, we have to move forward is not something that I will lose sight of, that is for sure, now until forever.
Q: And did you have friends or family in other states or countries even? And how were their experiences from when you talk to them different from your own here in Hoboken or in Jersey City?
CW: I mean, I have family in Scotland and England. So my parents are British. And so all our family is abroad. And it was very, very different, very strict abroad, in the UK. No households could mix at one point. And the government was offering incentives for people to report any cross pollination of families or group gatherings. And where my mom's family is in particular, it's all the way in the north in Scotland. Very remote. Not very remote, but pretty remote compared to New Jersey's dense population. You know, the thought of COVID getting there was just beyond our wildest imagination. And sure enough, it was there. Our cousins had it, their kids had it.
So it's one of these things that was just everywhere. But their way of handling it was just to do lockdown and very, very strict measures, but it didn't impact it. It still managed to work its way in. Borders opened up pretty early, and a lot of people were pointing to the fact that that's why the wave kicked off when it did and then it came over to us. So, you know, it was really interesting just to hear the different perspectives, and the [unintelligible 00:34:54] that came over there just like it did here.
KK: And most of my family is, you know, here in New Jersey or in New York, quite close by, but I still think everybody's experience with COVID was so different. And, also, coming from the fact, too, that within my own family, you know, there were some people who were very against getting the vaccine. So I think that just really amplified how different people were experiencing this and going through things, and, you know, it brought up different points of contention at family gatherings and things like that. So just a reminder that everybody kind of experiences a pandemic in their very own personal way.
Q: And do you think there was anything about being in Hoboken that made your pandemic experiences unique?
CW: Well, for me, I have to–Political views aside, I thought Mayor Bhalla did a phenomenal job in running the city during that time. I have no agenda here in saying that. I just–From my perspective, I felt like his communication was so clear. I felt comfort in knowing that there was somebody watching over this square mile.
I thought the way they led the charge with helping small businesses–Ours was not yet a thing, so it wasn't affected–But creating the street eries, really championing businesses and allowing them to make accommodations for outdoor dining, and supporting in that regard, creating the grants and issuing the messages around when they were due and what needed to be done. I thought he did great job.
So I found tremendous amounts of comfort. And I was reminded of the difference between Hoboken and other cities. When we were in Jersey City, where we lived at the time, I took the kids to the American Museum of Natural History quite a bit, and seeing the amount of businesses that shut down in New York was crushing.
At one point I remember when we went in, I said to Kristin and my husband, I was, like, "It felt like a ghost town." Manhattan's Upper West Side felt like a ghost town. Hoboken never felt like that. Yes, it thinned out. And when I'd go on walks with my kids, it felt sad that no one was here. No one was waiting. There were no friends to play with at the playgrounds. But overall I thought Hoboken did a phenomenal job at, like, keeping the businesses alive and flourishing while informing and supporting the residents, young and old alike.
Q: Anything else you want to add?
KK: I think we kind of summed it up great.
CW: I agree. [Unintelligible 00:37:34].
Q: And do you know anybody else in town that had to open for business, you know, did they have any different, you know, experiences than your own?
KK: Yeah. I mean, I think we've become friendly with a lot of other business owners in town, and I think everybody kind of had their own different way of kind of dealing with COVID, handling COVID. I'm trying to think of anything in particular.
CW: You know, it's just the different business owners with different landlords.
KK: Yeah.
CW: Some, you know, were fantastic landlords who were really understanding of what they were going through, would hold off on rent. Even ours, when we were saying to them, you know, we might not be able to open and do well. Would you tack on rent that we owe onto the back end of our lease? And they were so accommodating.
Nick Petruzzelli, who is a local, born and raised in this area, and has lived here for many, many, many years, was phenomenal to work with. We are fortunate in that because we had other friends and businesses that their landlords were really difficult to work for and really put their businesses, you know, at a tipping point.
I think of Elevate Pilates, which is not too far from this library, she struggled in the sense of, like, her landlord gave no accommodations, and she survived the pandemic. So I think there is a level of not ego. What's it–I think pride if you made it through the pandemic without any sort of support from your landlord or the government and made it, because it's very challenging. You know, it was really, really dark the first early few months.
Q: Did you have any family that was essential workers or friends that were essential workers that–Any stories from that?
CW: Oh, yeah. I have a few friends who are nurses, some school nurses, some in hospitals. Hearing their stories, the one that stands out, a friend of mine who works for Robert Wood Johnson in New Brunswick, New Jersey, saying that they brought in a mobile morgue. And I don't know that I will ever forget hearing that. Just the thought of a hospital needing something like that was and still is absolutely chilling. And just the level of stress.
We served many nurses, too, during those early days, and hearing their stories of, yeah, the ER's picking up again. Hearing their struggles to find PPE even in November and December 2020 was really, really traumatizing. You just think frontline workers like that will always have what they need to serve people who need it, need the help. But, yeah, just hearing their stories was very eye opening.
Q: And have you made any changes in your life or job, anything that the business, you know, changed the way you opened that you might keep even post pandemic?
KK: I think one of the things that we've kept is the reservation system for our play space. We offer open play for half a day, and we've kept the reservations for part of the day because we've heard from a lot of customers they really like that. They like being able to have a space that they can go with their friends and know just who is going to be in there. So that's one of the things that we've kept for sure.
CW: I also think we introduced for our hourly workers at the shop paid sick time. I think putting value on taking care of yourself when you are unwell I think is something that we should all take with us now, pre pandemic, post pandemic, and forever. Because, no, it's important to take care of ourselves. That's something.
I don't know. I don't have anything else. We like to celebrate nurses and teachers, that's for sure, and that's something that we'll forever do with free cookies and coffee whenever we can.
Q: Has the pandemic changed anything about the way you view Hoboken?
CW: If anything, I love it more. You know, going back to what I said about how Mayor Bhalla and his, you know, his team and council ran the city throughout the pandemic, certainly the early months, I don't know, it just made me fall in love with it more. The tight knit nature of this community, the way they came together to–One of our customers runs the food pantry. And just hearing her stories about how Hoboken really banded together to keep it stocked, hearing stories of people who had never been but all of a sudden needed to go, I just think Hoboken is a magical town in that it really rises up when faced with a challenge.
I've been here long enough to see a few challenges. Hurricane Sandy stands out in my mind. Hurricane–was it Ida that we suffered through? And, of course, the pandemic. So, you know, I think there's a lot to be celebrated about what they do for one another.
Q: And what changes do you think Hoboken has had since the pandemic? Do you think any mood's changed or...
KK: A lot more people, that's for sure.
CW: I mean, we feel like that we saw so many of our friends move out of Hoboken. And at one point Kristin and I were, like, are we going to have any friends left in town? It was sad to see so many people move for more states, which we understood, but now we're seeing so many people coming back. I think holy moly. I mean, this town is busting at the seams with new faces, which is so great.
KK: And I think, like, I love that the parklets and the street eries have kind of stayed around. I think it just, like, really brings the sidewalks of this city to life, and it's so cool to see all these, you know, restaurants thriving, and having all this additional space is cool.
CW: Yeah, lots of [unintelligible 00:43:12].
Q: Do you have any predictions for the future of Hoboken?
CW: It's certainly an expensive town to live in. And I think it's only going to get more expensive. (Laughs)
I'd like to think that, you know, maybe it's maybe not a prediction, more of a hope that this community continues to be supportive of one another. There's so much diversity within the town, so many young families.
We spoke at Brandt's career day on Friday, the first, and–that they had. And that's both history. And just seeing these young faces gave us such hope because they're so smart. The education they're receiving is so incredible. The teachers are amazing. I think if anything, this town is going to be in great hands if those graduates take care of it at all, I think.
KK: Yeah. I mean, I wish I had a crystal ball to see what's going to come of Hoboken, but I think you're right. I think it's just going to get more magical. And I think there's just more energy and more people coming in, and hopefully it means all good things.
I mean, there's a lot of cool new projects, like, coming up. I know our landlords are doing a really amazing project in the southwest of Hoboken to bring a whole retail plaza and more services to that part of town. So I think there's a lot of exciting things happening that's going to just keep this town alive and keep the magic coming.
Q: Anything else you'd like to mention about Hoboken related to the pandemic or your personal experiences?
CW: I mean, we're so grateful to the town's residents for coming out in support of our business, because, truly, something that we talk about often is how grateful we are that we were able to survive as a new business. They say, you know, 50% of new businesses don't make it to their first anniversary. The fact that we did and we're thinking of growing within this town is something that we're so grateful for. And just for this community for being so fantastic.
We pour our hearts and our souls and so much of our time into working at The Hive and creating magic for everyone at The Hive that, you know, I don't know, I just can't wrap my head around what it would have been like if people didn't take a chance on coming to us and then keep coming back.
KK: Yeah, yeah. I think we're incredibly grateful that especially during COVID people, you know, took a little bit of a risk to come out and give us a chance and be a part of the community that we are trying to build, and we'll never not be grateful that we were able to be a part of everyone's lives and for some people a part of their day every day while they were going through this really crazy, insane time in the world. So...
CW: We're so lucky, too, to hear so many of their stories. We've met–You know, Frank O'Brien always stands out to me, because he worked before Truglio's–So our shop, The Hive, is in the former Truglio's butcher shop footprint. The Truglio family lived within the building. Prior to Truglio's was a deli called Hank's. Truglio's just had a little–a little office, a little annex, if you will, which is now our play space. And Frank O'Brien has been coming in since the very beginning, and just the loveliest of men. And he's told us so many stories. And we've heard that from others.
There's another Frank who tells us, like, little stories about how Hoboken was. You know, when it was New Year's Eve, their horse carts would go up and down the streets, and people would ring out bells. I hope those stories continue being told. This is why something like this oral history of anything is so important, because it's so easy to forget what this town was like. And I hope in 25, 30, 40 years people look back and think they were scared of what? And they were scared of their business not working? I don't know, I think it's important to document these things. And we're lucky to hear about it every day in the shop.
Q: Anything else pandemic related you'd want future generations of Hobokenites to know about?
KK: That feels like a very big responsibility to answer that.
CW: Yeah. We did our best.
KK: We did our best. I think that's a good one.
CW: It was scary. I hope people realize just how scary it was.
KK: Yeah. And I feel like even looking back on my own experiences from the beginning of COVID, and I'm, like, I did what? Like, people–thinking about people who were, like, Lysoling their bananas, I'm, like, doing all these things that in the moment you're, like, we have to do this to, like, make it through; but now looking back, we're, like, what were we doing? But when you–when the whole entire planet is going through this, like, unknown thing, everyone is just kind of I guess, like you said, doing their best and listening to any new information that we have at the moment. Yeah.
And hopefully future generations will never have to go through something like that. And I'm sure they'll do different things. But, yeah, there was just so much unknown, and every day was different information. We didn't know what information to believe and to listen to. And in the beginning, it was, like, don't wear masks. They don't do anything. And then months later it was, like, no, everybody has to wear a mask. So it just was such a really–I don't know how to describe it–remarkable time. I don't know.
Q: If there are–there is something like this a hundred years from now, another pandemic, what would you say to those people in the future that have to go through this?
CW: Buy lots of wine. No.
KK: And toilet paper.
CW: And toilet paper. (Laughs)
Just know that there will be brighter days ahead. I think if we'd been told, like, this is going to go on forever at the start of the pandemic, I think we all would have just gone into crisis mode. I think we probably did go into crisis mode. But know that there will be brighter days ahead. Right? Optimism is everything when it comes to getting through life and pandemics.
KK: Yeah. And I think all you can do in those moments is lean on your family and your friends and get through it together as best you can. And it's a good reminder, like we were mentioning before, about, like, what truly is important, and, you know, it gives you a new–an entire new perspective on everything.
Q: Anything else that you'd like to add?
CW: Well, if anyone is listening to this in 25, 30 years and The Hive is still alive and well, just remember it was made by two moms who were very, very scared and overwhelmed and nervous at the start of the COVID 19 pandemic, and we weren't sure if we were going to make it. So here's hoping–
KK: Yeah. So here's hoping for those of you who are listening to this in 30 years that there are Hives all over the country and Catherine and I are on a Caribbean island somewhere drinking margaritas.
CW: (Laughs)
Q: Thank you so much.
CW: Thank you for having us.
KK: Thank you.
CW: This was so nice. Thank you.
Interviewer
Aimee Harris
Interviewee
Kristin Karotkin, Catherine Willhoit
Location
Hoboken Public Library, Hoboken, New Jersey
Citation
Hoboken Public Library, “Interview 09: Kristin Karotkin and Catherine Willhoit,” Hoboken Public Library's 2022 COVID-19 Oral History Project, accessed May 14, 2024, https://hobokenoralhistory2022.omeka.net/items/show/9.